Comments on: Madness and Civilization III http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/ Rob MacDougall Dot Org Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:00:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Some reflections of others « U-R-Versity http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-619 Some reflections of others « U-R-Versity Sun, 30 May 2010 13:36:51 +0000 http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-619 [...] a teacher applied Sid Meiers Civ for his history teaching and another taking it into university . He describes how they talked about it in class and came up with new ideas like matrices (which is [...] [...] a teacher applied Sid Meiers Civ for his history teaching and another taking it into university . He describes how they talked about it in class and came up with new ideas like matrices (which is [...]

]]> By: History Invaders! http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-618 History Invaders! Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:35:26 +0000 http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-618 [...] is my critique of Civilization and similar games, much as I love them, as history-teaching tools. The more you play, the less you think about [...] [...] is my critique of Civilization and similar games, much as I love them, as history-teaching tools. The more you play, the less you think about [...]

]]> By: Civilization & Education « Electric Archaeology: Digital Media for Learning and Research http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-617 Civilization & Education « Electric Archaeology: Digital Media for Learning and Research Tue, 27 May 2008 15:54:04 +0000 http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-617 [...] games (it seemed much more clever when expressed in 7000 words than 20), I came across the following post on Rob MacDougall’s blog which covers some of what I’m thinking: In simpler language, Civilization’s game play erases [...] [...] games (it seemed much more clever when expressed in 7000 words than 20), I came across the following post on Rob MacDougall’s blog which covers some of what I’m thinking: In simpler language, Civilization’s game play erases [...]

]]> By: History and Gaming « All That Is Solid http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-616 History and Gaming « All That Is Solid Thu, 22 May 2008 15:44:18 +0000 http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-616 [...] as Rob MacDougall in his post on gaming as a couse subject. Rob also has a thoughtful post on the limitations and possibilities for history gaming, including a discussion of History Canada, itself a mod for [...] [...] as Rob MacDougall in his post on gaming as a couse subject. Rob also has a thoughtful post on the limitations and possibilities for history gaming, including a discussion of History Canada, itself a mod for [...]

]]> By: Heather http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-615 Heather Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:46:12 +0000 http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-615 Very, very well-put and argued. Computer games are indeed ultimately about learning to anticipate the programming, not about learning history. And yes, I do say that as a long-time Civ addict (I still remember installing it from floppies all those years ago), although I have so far resisted the siren song of the latest version (I don't know how much longer that will last, though!). I absolutely love your idea of having students design rather than play such a game as a learning method, and look forward to reading more. Very, very well-put and argued. Computer games are indeed ultimately about learning to anticipate the programming, not about learning history. And yes, I do say that as a long-time Civ addict (I still remember installing it from floppies all those years ago), although I have so far resisted the siren song of the latest version (I don’t know how much longer that will last, though!). I absolutely love your idea of having students design rather than play such a game as a learning method, and look forward to reading more.

]]> By: Rob http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-614 Rob Sat, 21 Jul 2007 17:58:44 +0000 http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-614 <strong>Jere:</strong> Agreed! That's going to be a future post. Do you know of any ARGs that have been heavily historical (either real or pseudo history)? Jere: Agreed! That’s going to be a future post. Do you know of any ARGs that have been heavily historical (either real or pseudo history)?

]]> By: Jeremiah http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-613 Jeremiah Sat, 21 Jul 2007 16:38:37 +0000 http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-613 I think folks looking to use computer games for historical exercises may want to go the ARG route. I think folks looking to use computer games for historical exercises may want to go the ARG route.

]]> By: Mark A. Rayner http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-612 Mark A. Rayner Fri, 13 Jul 2007 15:17:56 +0000 http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-612 CIV isn't historical? So does this mean that Sid Meier's Pirates! (Live the Life) is not an accurate reflection of nautical tomfoolery in the 17th century? Arrr! :) m. P.S. I've been playing CIV since the original, and it has eaten at least one novel that I might have otherwise written with the time. Great post! CIV isn’t historical? So does this mean that Sid Meier’s Pirates! (Live the Life) is not an accurate reflection of nautical tomfoolery in the 17th century?

Arrr!
:) m.

P.S. I’ve been playing CIV since the original, and it has eaten at least one novel that I might have otherwise written with the time.

Great post!

]]> By: Rob http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-611 Rob Fri, 13 Jul 2007 03:13:15 +0000 http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-611 Thanks for the comments,all! <b>Shane:</b> Thanks for your comment. I must admit I cut myself off after Civ3 and have not tried Civ4. Shane, are you saying that there is in fact an interface that lets you monkey with the algorithms behind the game? I mean, in a more detailed way than just creating your own maps and scenarios? Because that's what I would see as a really interesting classroom exercise: letting the kids debate what the effect of trade, or luxuries, or various forms of government, might be on a city. <b>Rollen, et al:</b> A bunch of people here, at Cliopatria, and in email, took me to task for saying Civ rewards militarism. I guess I can't speak for Civ4, or for the way you play, but I know I've catapulted a pantload of Mongols, and my scores are pretty good. I could, if you prefer, replace the word "militarist" with "expansionist" - surely there's no way to win at Civ without expanding? But as I tried to say above, Galloway's argument, which I buy, is that ultimately it doesn't matter what the ideological underpinnings are - those are just windowdressing that you learn to ignore as you get closer and closer to the code. <b>TC</b>: No worries about Sloucho. But you read my mind re: alternate reality gaming. Thanks for that link, and look for that in a future post down the road. <b>Sean:</b> Thanks for the Wired link, and very good point about the social games. That changes everything in terms of the argument I/Galloway/Friedman make above. (Which Guild Master are we talking about? I think I know, but maybe I know too many WoW players, or too many Seans...) Thanks for the comments,all!

Shane: Thanks for your comment. I must admit I cut myself off after Civ3 and have not tried Civ4. Shane, are you saying that there is in fact an interface that lets you monkey with the algorithms behind the game? I mean, in a more detailed way than just creating your own maps and scenarios? Because that’s what I would see as a really interesting classroom exercise: letting the kids debate what the effect of trade, or luxuries, or various forms of government, might be on a city.

Rollen, et al: A bunch of people here, at Cliopatria, and in email, took me to task for saying Civ rewards militarism. I guess I can’t speak for Civ4, or for the way you play, but I know I’ve catapulted a pantload of Mongols, and my scores are pretty good. I could, if you prefer, replace the word “militarist” with “expansionist” – surely there’s no way to win at Civ without expanding? But as I tried to say above, Galloway’s argument, which I buy, is that ultimately it doesn’t matter what the ideological underpinnings are – those are just windowdressing that you learn to ignore as you get closer and closer to the code.

TC: No worries about Sloucho. But you read my mind re: alternate reality gaming. Thanks for that link, and look for that in a future post down the road.

Sean: Thanks for the Wired link, and very good point about the social games. That changes everything in terms of the argument I/Galloway/Friedman make above. (Which Guild Master are we talking about? I think I know, but maybe I know too many WoW players, or too many Seans…)

]]> By: Sean http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-610 Sean Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:40:02 +0000 http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2007/07/madness-and-civilization-iii/#comment-610 The focus here seems to be on solo play, man vs. Big Blue. But, of course, multi-player play opens another box of things to consider. Within this context, the mechanism of the game is still important, but with a layer of social complexity thrown in that expands the pedagogical limits of the game. To whit: the struggles of one Guild Master we both know, who eventually "retired", not because the game itself, but because of the diplomatic work load. The social life of the game became more vibrant/demanding/interesting than the game mechanism itself. I think there's great potential in using the interface of multiplayer games to explore simulated real-world issues. My personal bent is more towards the modern political simulation, rather than historical. But I think it's a facet of the discussion still worth considering. Sean ps. Interesting article in Wired about the moral impact of games: http://www.wired.com/gaming/gamingreviews/magazine/15-07/pl_games The focus here seems to be on solo play, man vs. Big Blue. But, of course, multi-player play opens another box of things to consider. Within this context, the mechanism of the game is still important, but with a layer of social complexity thrown in that expands the pedagogical limits of the game.

To whit: the struggles of one Guild Master we both know, who eventually “retired”, not because the game itself, but because of the diplomatic work load. The social life of the game became more vibrant/demanding/interesting than the game mechanism itself.

I think there’s great potential in using the interface of multiplayer games to explore simulated real-world issues. My personal bent is more towards the modern political simulation, rather than historical. But I think it’s a facet of the discussion still worth considering.

Sean

ps. Interesting article in Wired about the moral impact of games:
http://www.wired.com/gaming/gamingreviews/magazine/15-07/pl_games

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