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	<title>Comments on: Fantasy Vietnam</title>
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	<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/</link>
	<description>Rob MacDougall Dot Org</description>
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		<title>By: Elliot Wilen</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1178</link>
		<dc:creator>Elliot Wilen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:51:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1178</guid>
		<description>Rob, I only just found this; seems like I keep getting drawn back to your series when I do some more research. This time I don&#039;t think I have much to add, though.

Well, I will throw a couple of connections your way. You mention Steward Brand; it might be worth expanding a bit more on The Whole Earth Catalog as a cultural nexus where all those &#039;70&#039;s and &#039;80&#039;s nontraditional-but-homebrew phenomena intermingled. The Last Whole Earth Catalog did have articles on wargames and D&amp;D if I recall correctly.

Another book of that era was The Great Escape, ed. by Min S. Yee and Donald K. Wright. It was slicker but less well-known than Whole Earth; it had a whole chapter on games which included New Games, wargames, RPGs, and other entertainments.

Finally, one element that I think you could touch on a bit more is the continuous nature of RPGs, which was as revolutionary as the cooperative quality. This had a number of effects, including making the games more &quot;pervasive&quot; (you were still &quot;in&quot; the game even when you weren&#039;t playing) and, somewhat related, creating an expanding field of meaning outside the isolated scenario. The continuity of gameplay combined with the hierarchical &quot;levels&quot; of play--the 20x20 room skirmish, or the search for traps &amp; treasure contextualized by the dungeon expedition; the dungeon expedition contextualized by the campaign arc and geography; those in turn contextualized by the PC narrative; and then the PC narrative contextualized by the &quot;world&quot; as a whole--this was an entirely new experience compared to nearly anything that had gone before, especially as an interactive activity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob, I only just found this; seems like I keep getting drawn back to your series when I do some more research. This time I don&#8217;t think I have much to add, though.</p>
<p>Well, I will throw a couple of connections your way. You mention Steward Brand; it might be worth expanding a bit more on The Whole Earth Catalog as a cultural nexus where all those &#8217;70&#8242;s and &#8217;80&#8242;s nontraditional-but-homebrew phenomena intermingled. The Last Whole Earth Catalog did have articles on wargames and D&amp;D if I recall correctly.</p>
<p>Another book of that era was The Great Escape, ed. by Min S. Yee and Donald K. Wright. It was slicker but less well-known than Whole Earth; it had a whole chapter on games which included New Games, wargames, RPGs, and other entertainments.</p>
<p>Finally, one element that I think you could touch on a bit more is the continuous nature of RPGs, which was as revolutionary as the cooperative quality. This had a number of effects, including making the games more &#8220;pervasive&#8221; (you were still &#8220;in&#8221; the game even when you weren&#8217;t playing) and, somewhat related, creating an expanding field of meaning outside the isolated scenario. The continuity of gameplay combined with the hierarchical &#8220;levels&#8221; of play&#8211;the 20&#215;20 room skirmish, or the search for traps &amp; treasure contextualized by the dungeon expedition; the dungeon expedition contextualized by the campaign arc and geography; those in turn contextualized by the PC narrative; and then the PC narrative contextualized by the &#8220;world&#8221; as a whole&#8211;this was an entirely new experience compared to nearly anything that had gone before, especially as an interactive activity.</p>
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		<title>By: Airminded &#183; History Carnival 77</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1177</link>
		<dc:creator>Airminded &#183; History Carnival 77</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 11:37:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1177</guid>
		<description>[...] We all have them &#8230; no, I&#8217;m not going to keep doing this! How to get from Vietnam to Dungeons &amp; Dragons. When dinosaurs roamed the Earth alongside humans. A freethinking biology textbook from the 1970s. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] We all have them &#8230; no, I&#8217;m not going to keep doing this! How to get from Vietnam to Dungeons &#038; Dragons. When dinosaurs roamed the Earth alongside humans. A freethinking biology textbook from the 1970s. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: riprock</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1176</link>
		<dc:creator>riprock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 May 2009 15:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1176</guid>
		<description>I encourage you to write up a real history of the roots.  For the next two weeks, though, I should limit myself to one-line comments of &quot;Go for it!&quot; while I attend to various matters.

What I would really like to find would be a nice searchable archive of Gygax&#039;s online mailing lists for the 1990s.  Most yahoo groups seem to start at 2000.  I think the 1990s were a critical decade for changes in attitude.

If I manage to get some good source documents, I&#039;ll try to get back to serious writing around July 2009.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I encourage you to write up a real history of the roots.  For the next two weeks, though, I should limit myself to one-line comments of &#8220;Go for it!&#8221; while I attend to various matters.</p>
<p>What I would really like to find would be a nice searchable archive of Gygax&#8217;s online mailing lists for the 1990s.  Most yahoo groups seem to start at 2000.  I think the 1990s were a critical decade for changes in attitude.</p>
<p>If I manage to get some good source documents, I&#8217;ll try to get back to serious writing around July 2009.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1175</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 May 2009 13:48:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1175</guid>
		<description>Hi Riprock: I&#039;m sorry for suspecting your comment of being spam. I get a lot and often it contains no obvious spam links, just a generic comment like &quot;Nice blog!&quot; or &quot;Thanks for writing this.&quot; Thanks for reading, and for your very real comment.

I hear what you&#039;re saying about things getting weird when you try to trace the lineage of D&amp;D/AD&amp;D etc. The exact questions of priority of invention and who came up with what are extremely sensitive for many people.

Again, thanks for reading and for being a real person!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Riprock: I&#8217;m sorry for suspecting your comment of being spam. I get a lot and often it contains no obvious spam links, just a generic comment like &#8220;Nice blog!&#8221; or &#8220;Thanks for writing this.&#8221; Thanks for reading, and for your very real comment.</p>
<p>I hear what you&#8217;re saying about things getting weird when you try to trace the lineage of D&amp;D/AD&amp;D etc. The exact questions of priority of invention and who came up with what are extremely sensitive for many people.</p>
<p>Again, thanks for reading and for being a real person!</p>
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		<title>By: riprock</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1174</link>
		<dc:creator>riprock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 May 2009 06:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1174</guid>
		<description>I assure you that I am not affiliated with any spiced ham potted meat product.

I do, however, have an obsessive and hard-to-justify interest in how AD&amp;D got to be the way it was, because one way or another it ended up having a massive impact on the Western world&#039;s approach to gaming.

Unfortunately, the lawsuits make it hard to document exactly which elements got weird at which points in time, and the all-too-recent deaths of both Gygax and Arneson still have some people mourning, so I try not to discuss it as bluntly as I otherwise would.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I assure you that I am not affiliated with any spiced ham potted meat product.</p>
<p>I do, however, have an obsessive and hard-to-justify interest in how AD&amp;D got to be the way it was, because one way or another it ended up having a massive impact on the Western world&#8217;s approach to gaming.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the lawsuits make it hard to document exactly which elements got weird at which points in time, and the all-too-recent deaths of both Gygax and Arneson still have some people mourning, so I try not to discuss it as bluntly as I otherwise would.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh W</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1173</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 19:31:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1173</guid>
		<description>Congrats! I find the general systems theory links interesting, partially because my affinity for elegant unified mechanics matches quite closely their interest in unified models dealing in set theory and feedback. I suspect we could probably learn a lot from them about making semi-realistic quickplay mechanics if only we could work out how to produce an s curve quickly.

I&#039;m going to look up Boulding now! And &quot;new games&quot;. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Congrats! I find the general systems theory links interesting, partially because my affinity for elegant unified mechanics matches quite closely their interest in unified models dealing in set theory and feedback. I suspect we could probably learn a lot from them about making semi-realistic quickplay mechanics if only we could work out how to produce an s curve quickly.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m going to look up Boulding now! And &#8220;new games&#8221;. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1172</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 12:21:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1172</guid>
		<description>Thanks, JB &amp; Rob! (And riprock, if you are not spam. :) )

Rob: I&#039;d love to see that proposal if you don&#039;t mind sharing. Better yet, the paper if it gets picked up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, JB &amp; Rob! (And riprock, if you are not spam. <img src='http://www.robmacdougall.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  )</p>
<p>Rob: I&#8217;d love to see that proposal if you don&#8217;t mind sharing. Better yet, the paper if it gets picked up.</p>
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		<title>By: riprock</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1171</link>
		<dc:creator>riprock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 07:56:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1171</guid>
		<description>I liked this.  Thanks for writing it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I liked this.  Thanks for writing it.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Barrett</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1170</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Barrett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 03:08:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1170</guid>
		<description>Great stuff in this series--you should know that I&#039;ve now referenced you and this post in my official panel proposal for the 2010 International Congress on Medieval Studies in Kalamazoo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great stuff in this series&#8211;you should know that I&#8217;ve now referenced you and this post in my official panel proposal for the 2010 International Congress on Medieval Studies in Kalamazoo.</p>
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		<title>By: JB</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1169</link>
		<dc:creator>JB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 15:13:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/index.php/2009/05/fantasy-vietnam/#comment-1169</guid>
		<description>Wow...that is just a mind-blowing analysis. Just read all your &quot;history articles&quot; back-to-back.  Thank you for the research...truly fascinating.

I only just found Wells&#039; Little Wars a couple years back and thought it was crazy that folks were playing these games so far back, but having grown up after Vietnam, I never considered the connection with the development of the RPG hobby.

Truly...a lot of food for thought (next up: an analysis of the change in RPGs and RPG philosophy due to events of the last decade or two!).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow&#8230;that is just a mind-blowing analysis. Just read all your &#8220;history articles&#8221; back-to-back.  Thank you for the research&#8230;truly fascinating.</p>
<p>I only just found Wells&#8217; Little Wars a couple years back and thought it was crazy that folks were playing these games so far back, but having grown up after Vietnam, I never considered the connection with the development of the RPG hobby.</p>
<p>Truly&#8230;a lot of food for thought (next up: an analysis of the change in RPGs and RPG philosophy due to events of the last decade or two!).</p>
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