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	<title>Comments on: The Secret Origin of Canada</title>
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	<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2010/01/the-secret-origin-of-canada/</link>
	<description>Rob MacDougall Dot Org</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:00:38 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2010/01/the-secret-origin-of-canada/#comment-1300</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:33:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/?p=520#comment-1300</guid>
		<description>@Ted: Ha! The Dorothy Parker line is a good one. Yoinked for future use.

@Chris: Thanks! And re: &quot;peace, welfare, and good gov&#039;t&quot; in the Constitution Act of 1791 - yes, the term goes back considerably earlier than Confederation. I think Saul&#039;s argument was that changing &quot;welfare&quot; to &quot;order&quot; happened with the BNA Act.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ted: Ha! The Dorothy Parker line is a good one. Yoinked for future use.</p>
<p>@Chris: Thanks! And re: &#8220;peace, welfare, and good gov&#8217;t&#8221; in the Constitution Act of 1791 &#8211; yes, the term goes back considerably earlier than Confederation. I think Saul&#8217;s argument was that changing &#8220;welfare&#8221; to &#8220;order&#8221; happened with the BNA Act.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Raible</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2010/01/the-secret-origin-of-canada/#comment-1299</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Raible</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 15:13:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/?p=520#comment-1299</guid>
		<description>A belated brief note of appreciation for your Jan 4 column - just brought to my attention by Chris Moore.  And for readers&#039; comments.
Even William Lyon Mackenzie was ambivalent about the U.S. - before, during, and after his years in exile there. By the end of his life he was writing approvingly about annexation, despite his acknowledged disapproval of the notion in 1849.
By the way, the Constitution Act of 1791 that created Upper  and Lower Canada refers to &quot;peace, welfare, and good Government&quot; hardly a late 19th century idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A belated brief note of appreciation for your Jan 4 column &#8211; just brought to my attention by Chris Moore.  And for readers&#8217; comments.<br />
Even William Lyon Mackenzie was ambivalent about the U.S. &#8211; before, during, and after his years in exile there. By the end of his life he was writing approvingly about annexation, despite his acknowledged disapproval of the notion in 1849.<br />
By the way, the Constitution Act of 1791 that created Upper  and Lower Canada refers to &#8220;peace, welfare, and good Government&#8221; hardly a late 19th century idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Ted</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2010/01/the-secret-origin-of-canada/#comment-1298</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:07:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/?p=520#comment-1298</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m impressed by your restraint in criticising Saul&#039;s book. I read it last year and kept thinking of Dorothy Parker&#039;s great line: &#039;this is not a book to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force.&#039;

Like you I&#039;m sympathetic to Saul&#039;s politics. But he&#039;s saying things that aren&#039;t true, and being snooty about it. Moreover, when people criticise him (like Jonathan Kay in the Post) he derides them as witless, mean, and ignorant.

If Saul knew what he was talking about he would not have written this book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m impressed by your restraint in criticising Saul&#8217;s book. I read it last year and kept thinking of Dorothy Parker&#8217;s great line: &#8216;this is not a book to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force.&#8217;</p>
<p>Like you I&#8217;m sympathetic to Saul&#8217;s politics. But he&#8217;s saying things that aren&#8217;t true, and being snooty about it. Moreover, when people criticise him (like Jonathan Kay in the Post) he derides them as witless, mean, and ignorant.</p>
<p>If Saul knew what he was talking about he would not have written this book.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2010/01/the-secret-origin-of-canada/#comment-1297</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 16:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/?p=520#comment-1297</guid>
		<description>Matt: Oh man, you said a mouthful. IMO, the anti-American bluster you describe still comes from a place of insecurity, adolescent and overweening as it comes across. But I can go on for hours about the foolishness of many stock Canadian comments and prejudices about the U.S. - and that &quot;melting pot and salad bowl&quot; line is near the top of my list.  I&#039;ll restrain myself and just apologize on behalf of my countrymen and women, and say that for what its worth, I do everything I can in my own little corner of Canada to combat this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt: Oh man, you said a mouthful. IMO, the anti-American bluster you describe still comes from a place of insecurity, adolescent and overweening as it comes across. But I can go on for hours about the foolishness of many stock Canadian comments and prejudices about the U.S. &#8211; and that &#8220;melting pot and salad bowl&#8221; line is near the top of my list.  I&#8217;ll restrain myself and just apologize on behalf of my countrymen and women, and say that for what its worth, I do everything I can in my own little corner of Canada to combat this.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Norwood</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2010/01/the-secret-origin-of-canada/#comment-1296</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Norwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 20:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/?p=520#comment-1296</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been fascinated and distracted by Canadian identity and its interplay with Canadian attitudes toward the US since moving from NYC to Toronto two years ago, so this post is a treat.

I didn&#039;t read Saul&#039;s book, but the reviews instilled the same attitude in me: it&#039;s a fascinating thesis that sticks in your head, but I&#039;m pretty sure it&#039;s hogwash. My previous exposure to Saul, and your example above with the US Constitutional language, reinforce my skepticism: as much as I want to like Saul, his arguments have always struck me as pretty half-baked and incoherent, and when reading his stuff I often wonder if he has any idea what he&#039;s talking about.

&lt;i&gt;The way I prefer to interpret this book is that Saul is engaged in conscious myth-building. His alternate history of Canada–a secret origin story, if you will–might not be provable or true, but it could offer a kind of usable past, a national mythology that would be more invigorating and not a lot less plausible than the one we’ve currently stitched together around hockey, Tim Horton’s, and miscellaneous insecurities.&lt;/i&gt;

Here I have to differ with you. Even before moving here, I was always struck by the confidence with which Canadians of my acquaintance would make pronouncements about the differences between the US and Canada (e.g. the &quot;salad bowl vs. melting pot&quot; multimulti line). The uniformity of these pronouncements led me to believe that these sentiments had been explicitly made a part of the Canadian primary school curriculum, and so they were -- if that&#039;s not &quot;conscious myth-building&quot;, I don&#039;t know what is.

I should mention how obnoxious these pronouncements are. I&#039;m about ten times as anti-American as most Canadians I know, but it&#039;s irritating to be told what the problem is with the country I grew up in by people who get it so wrong with such confidence. In my experience, attitudes toward assimilation aren&#039;t tremendously different in the two countries: many cities in each country are refreshingly cosmopolitan and pluralistic, and many other regions are toxically xenophobic, even if the Canadians tend to be a little more polite about how this gets expressed. The biggest difference I would choose tpo focus on is that the racism that infects the US is not primarily assimilationist, but eliminationist, which is much worse. (This is of course a drastic generalization, but the actual complexity of the differences is another casualty of such myths as &quot;the salad bowl and the melting pot&quot;.)

My point is that as much as I love Canadians, the point where its people most often falter in their otherwise impeccable courtesy and affability is caused by their being over-, not under-, burdened with &quot;conscious myth-building&quot;. This is, IMO, a tragic Canadian afflication: the desperate need to spin stories about who they are in terms that reduce the complexities of history to caricature. The best medicine I can think to prescribe is regular exposure to comparative national statistics on health, wealth, security, equality, and happiness: what identity does the country need other than &quot;whatever we&#039;re all about, it works pretty damn well&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been fascinated and distracted by Canadian identity and its interplay with Canadian attitudes toward the US since moving from NYC to Toronto two years ago, so this post is a treat.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t read Saul&#8217;s book, but the reviews instilled the same attitude in me: it&#8217;s a fascinating thesis that sticks in your head, but I&#8217;m pretty sure it&#8217;s hogwash. My previous exposure to Saul, and your example above with the US Constitutional language, reinforce my skepticism: as much as I want to like Saul, his arguments have always struck me as pretty half-baked and incoherent, and when reading his stuff I often wonder if he has any idea what he&#8217;s talking about.</p>
<p><i>The way I prefer to interpret this book is that Saul is engaged in conscious myth-building. His alternate history of Canada–a secret origin story, if you will–might not be provable or true, but it could offer a kind of usable past, a national mythology that would be more invigorating and not a lot less plausible than the one we’ve currently stitched together around hockey, Tim Horton’s, and miscellaneous insecurities.</i></p>
<p>Here I have to differ with you. Even before moving here, I was always struck by the confidence with which Canadians of my acquaintance would make pronouncements about the differences between the US and Canada (e.g. the &#8220;salad bowl vs. melting pot&#8221; multimulti line). The uniformity of these pronouncements led me to believe that these sentiments had been explicitly made a part of the Canadian primary school curriculum, and so they were &#8212; if that&#8217;s not &#8220;conscious myth-building&#8221;, I don&#8217;t know what is.</p>
<p>I should mention how obnoxious these pronouncements are. I&#8217;m about ten times as anti-American as most Canadians I know, but it&#8217;s irritating to be told what the problem is with the country I grew up in by people who get it so wrong with such confidence. In my experience, attitudes toward assimilation aren&#8217;t tremendously different in the two countries: many cities in each country are refreshingly cosmopolitan and pluralistic, and many other regions are toxically xenophobic, even if the Canadians tend to be a little more polite about how this gets expressed. The biggest difference I would choose tpo focus on is that the racism that infects the US is not primarily assimilationist, but eliminationist, which is much worse. (This is of course a drastic generalization, but the actual complexity of the differences is another casualty of such myths as &#8220;the salad bowl and the melting pot&#8221;.)</p>
<p>My point is that as much as I love Canadians, the point where its people most often falter in their otherwise impeccable courtesy and affability is caused by their being over-, not under-, burdened with &#8220;conscious myth-building&#8221;. This is, IMO, a tragic Canadian afflication: the desperate need to spin stories about who they are in terms that reduce the complexities of history to caricature. The best medicine I can think to prescribe is regular exposure to comparative national statistics on health, wealth, security, equality, and happiness: what identity does the country need other than &#8220;whatever we&#8217;re all about, it works pretty damn well&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: michael</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2010/01/the-secret-origin-of-canada/#comment-1295</link>
		<dc:creator>michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 14:12:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/?p=520#comment-1295</guid>
		<description>I guess you are still working on the post about possessed staircase elevators</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess you are still working on the post about possessed staircase elevators</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2010/01/the-secret-origin-of-canada/#comment-1294</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 05:49:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/?p=520#comment-1294</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;North &lt;strong&gt;Atlantic&lt;/strong&gt; Triangle&lt;/em&gt;, that is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>North <strong>Atlantic</strong> Triangle</em>, that is.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2010/01/the-secret-origin-of-canada/#comment-1293</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 05:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/?p=520#comment-1293</guid>
		<description>Have you read any of the Carnegie series from the 1930s/40s on American and Canadian history? I&#039;ve coincidentally just started Brebner&#039;s &lt;em&gt;North American Triangle&lt;/em&gt; on the history of Canada, the U.S., and Britain and their relations - but apparently with emphasis on Canada - as part of my attempt to get to know Canadian history better during my stay in this fair/overcast land and it has a weird modern (it&#039;s transnational!) and archaic (it&#039;s from the 1940s, after all) feel to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you read any of the Carnegie series from the 1930s/40s on American and Canadian history? I&#8217;ve coincidentally just started Brebner&#8217;s <em>North American Triangle</em> on the history of Canada, the U.S., and Britain and their relations &#8211; but apparently with emphasis on Canada &#8211; as part of my attempt to get to know Canadian history better during my stay in this fair/overcast land and it has a weird modern (it&#8217;s transnational!) and archaic (it&#8217;s from the 1940s, after all) feel to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Dresner</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2010/01/the-secret-origin-of-canada/#comment-1292</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Dresner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 03:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/?p=520#comment-1292</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;&quot;Canada has no cultural unity, no linguistic unity, no religious unity, no economic unity, no geographic unity. All it has is unity.&quot; Kenneth Boulding&lt;/i&gt;

It&#039;s interesting to contrast the metis argument with something like Fernandez-Armesto&#039;s (at least in his World textbook) argument (which I found surprisingly convincing) that what happens in the Americas is &quot;creolization&quot;: the development of a generation of colonial-born citizens who lacked a strong cultural identification with the homeland but nonetheless shared the culture of the Enlightenment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;Canada has no cultural unity, no linguistic unity, no religious unity, no economic unity, no geographic unity. All it has is unity.&#8221; Kenneth Boulding</i></p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting to contrast the metis argument with something like Fernandez-Armesto&#8217;s (at least in his World textbook) argument (which I found surprisingly convincing) that what happens in the Americas is &#8220;creolization&#8221;: the development of a generation of colonial-born citizens who lacked a strong cultural identification with the homeland but nonetheless shared the culture of the Enlightenment.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.robmacdougall.org/blog/2010/01/the-secret-origin-of-canada/#comment-1291</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 14:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robmacdougall.org/?p=520#comment-1291</guid>
		<description>Haven&#039;t read it yet, though it has a swell cover. I&#039;m happy to see the italics and braces are being published [though he _was_ the Viceregal consort of Canada [spanning two millenia! [so you figure he&#039;s a guy insecure about his legal standing [and sick of ceremonial protocol [so he has a unique way of looking at things]]]]]. Bold or Emphasis are useful for either a silly or sarcastic tone, and braces are great for throwing in an aside or breaking the 4th wall with the reader.

The U.S. gets slammed by the Canadian left because the U.S. is such a likely target. Sure there&#039;s the uhhh socio-cultural differences,  but we like big-box stores too. They like to bomb other countries, but they don&#039;t bomb us, even though we&#039;re an easy target. We&#039;re their biggest trading partner, when you go to the mattresses, nobody&#039;s earning. A big deal is made over how much of Canada is really owned by the U.S., but not enough complaint is made over how much of Canada is really owned by the rest of the world.

The US-Europe comparison is interesting because their populations are pretty well equal.

I believe _everything_ I read [it helps to only read selectively], until I read something else disputes it, so that whittles it down to five!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haven&#8217;t read it yet, though it has a swell cover. I&#8217;m happy to see the italics and braces are being published [though he _was_ the Viceregal consort of Canada [spanning two millenia! [so you figure he's a guy insecure about his legal standing [and sick of ceremonial protocol [so he has a unique way of looking at things]]]]]. Bold or Emphasis are useful for either a silly or sarcastic tone, and braces are great for throwing in an aside or breaking the 4th wall with the reader.</p>
<p>The U.S. gets slammed by the Canadian left because the U.S. is such a likely target. Sure there&#8217;s the uhhh socio-cultural differences,  but we like big-box stores too. They like to bomb other countries, but they don&#8217;t bomb us, even though we&#8217;re an easy target. We&#8217;re their biggest trading partner, when you go to the mattresses, nobody&#8217;s earning. A big deal is made over how much of Canada is really owned by the U.S., but not enough complaint is made over how much of Canada is really owned by the rest of the world.</p>
<p>The US-Europe comparison is interesting because their populations are pretty well equal.</p>
<p>I believe _everything_ I read [it helps to only read selectively], until I read something else disputes it, so that whittles it down to five!</p>
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